Suella Braverman was challenged on BBC Question Time after a Black audience member accused her of “being racist against herself” for saying she does not identify as English, despite being born in Britain.
The Reform UK education spokesperson told the programme that she considers herself “British of Asian ethnicity”, rather than English, because of her family background.
The former Conservative home secretary was speaking during a debate in Tottenham, north London, when an audience member said her position risked reinforcing a racist argument.
The 54-year-old man told Mrs Braverman he would be “very rich” if he had received a penny every time someone had told him he was not English, despite being born in the country.
He agreed when the London-born politician suggested that she was “being racist against myself”, prompting her to reply: “Right, well that makes a lot of sense.”
The exchange came as Mrs Braverman discussed the meaning of English identity while promoting her new book, Patriot: Empire, Betrayal and Hope, which explores her family history.
Her father, Chris, was born in Kenya, while her mother, Uma, was born in Mauritius. Both have Indian ancestry, and Mrs Braverman also has French Creole and Portuguese heritage.
Another audience member referred to former prime minister Rishi Sunak’s recent explanation of “why he’s English”, saying it should never have been necessary for his identity to be questioned.
Reform UK education spokesperson Suella Braverman appeared on Question Time last night
A 54-year-old audience member in Tottenham accused Mrs Braverman of being racist
Presenter Fiona Bruce said the discussion followed comments from Mr Sunak, who had spoken about being portrayed as “a brown Hindu who was British but couldn’t be English”.
She then asked Mrs Braverman to expand on her own view after noting that the politician had described herself as British but not English.
Mrs Braverman replied: “Doesn’t sound very controversial to me, but suddenly it has become debatable. I was born in London, North London actually, in 1980.
“My parents came to this country as immigrants with nothing. I am very grateful to Britain for the hand of friendship it extended to them.
“I have always considered myself British of Asian ethnicity, and that is something I have never questioned. Of course I’m not English. I’m not an English person.
“I am of Asian origin. In my book, I trace some of my ancestry, with relatives originating in India and moving through Mauritius and Kenya before spreading across the world. They are not English, so it would misrepresent me to claim Englishness as an ethnicity.”
She added that if someone with her background had been born in Japan, she would not describe herself as Japanese, and would similarly not call herself Chinese if she had been born in China.
Mrs Braverman continued: “Why are the English the only people on earth who cannot have a distinct identity? It baffles me that this has suddenly become a debate, and I do not want to deny my Asian heritage.
“I am British Asian, as millions of people in this country consider themselves to be. I do not see why that is controversial. I can be born in England, support the England football team and love England.”
Suella Braverman pictured with her parents, Chris, who was born in Kenya, and Uma, who was born in Mauritius
Bruce then questioned her on her stance, asking ‘how far back’ you should go to be considered ‘fully English’, adding: ‘Are we talking 1066, are we talking three generations?’
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Mrs Braverman accused her of asking the question ‘a bit facetiously’ and insisted there was ‘no fixed date’, but Bruce pressed her to explain further.
Mrs Braverman told her: ‘Obviously you take a reasonable approach, but my parents were not born in England, my grandparents were not born in England so in my particular instance, no, I am not of English origin.’
She added: ‘I’m not the one saying that it has to be five generations or four generations.
‘I think it becomes pretty obvious when people have got a lineage, an ancestry, a connection to the heritage of this country which dates back a few generations. And I think that that is not unreasonable to expect of people who come to this country.’
Bruce concluded: ‘So, okay, a few generations. I’m not sure how many.’
Later in the show, the 54-year-old audience member told Mrs Braverman: ‘I think what you’ve done is just basically reinforce the racist argument.
‘I’ve been on this planet for 54 years and the amount of times I’ve been told I’m not English even though I was born here. If I’d had a penny for every time I’ve been given that.’
Bruce asked him: ‘And do you consider yourself English, can I ask you?’
Suella Braverman with Rishi Sunak in May 2023 when she was home secretary and he was PM. Mr Sunak recently said he was described as a ‘brown Hindu’ who was British but not English
And the man replied: ‘Absolutely, absolutely. So what you’ve done is reinforce the argument.’
Mrs Braverman then asked: ‘I’m being racist against myself?’
The man agreed, saying ‘basically you are’, and she replied: ‘Right. Well, that makes a lot of sense.’
Mrs Braverman continued: ‘I’m not going to be racist… I believe we can have a cohesive society that unites around British identity. But I also want to pay respect to the English people and I don’t think that is something controversial.’
The man asked her: ‘No one’s disrespecting English people. Do you understand what the word indigenous means? If you were born here, you’re indigenous. Yeah? Simple.’
Energy secretary Miatta Fahnbulleh, who was also on the panel, then came in and told Mrs Braverman: ‘I don’t know, Suella. It makes me really sad. I think the reason our politics has been so coarse around immigration are arguments that have been sort of put on display here.
‘I come at this issue as a first generation migrant who came to this country to seek refuge and I know that this country is a welcoming tolerant country and I’m a product of it.
‘It’s tragic that we cannot have a sensible debate around immigration that there are these undercurrents of racism that are put into it so that we can’t look at the problem. The system is broken and the two people sitting here who are part of a government that broke it.’
The other panel members on the BBC One programme were the Conservative shadow business secretary Julia Lopez and the journalist and podcaster Oli Dugmore.
- Question Time is available to stream on BBC iPlayer here
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